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SNOWMASS-EF  August 2013

SNOWMASS-EF August 2013

Subject:

Re: VLHC in the snowmass summary

From:

Eric J Prebys <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

snowmass-ef Snowmass 2013 Energy Frontier conveners <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:15:52 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (108 lines)

Somewhat more specific comments....

In general, the summary reads quite well.  In this specific area, I think it's important to
convey the scale of R&D required to move forward with a VLHC, or indeed any future
Energy Frontier machine, particularly in  this era of rapidly dwindling generic R&D dollars.  

Reading it again,  I  also think some people would  justifiably freak out at the word "begun", 
in that people have been thinking pretty seriously about this for over 30 years
(for the record, 40 > 33  for example).

Perhaps the last sentence of the Energy Frontier section should be replaced with something
like.  
  
  "Study continued into the physics program of proton colliders at 33 and 100 TeV center of 
   mass energy.  The scale of technological development for any of these future colliders
   underscores the continuing need for a broad and robust domestic R&D program."

and perhaps some more specific wording in the capabilities section.

-Eric


On Aug 23, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Eric J Prebys wrote:

> I'm sorry I haven't weighed in on this.  I've been out of town.  I agree that there's no way the VLHC and
> ILC can be put on the same footing, either in terms of preparedness or physics motivation.  I've never personally
> been a huge ILC fan, but it has a very advanced technical design, and a definite physics motivation, and if
> it's evaluated favorably based on those, a button can be pushed.  
> 
> The VLHC is very different.  The design is nowhere near as far along, and at the moment the strongest
> motivation is the presupposition (already) that nothing else will be found at the LHC, and as a fishing
> expedition, it's a pretty big risk.
> 
> HOWEVER, it's extremely important to keep the VLHC prominently mentioned in terms of
> the need for a robust R&D program.  Magnet development, beam physics, and energy deposition
> studies (just to name a few) have to advance significantly to even think about building a VLHC.
> This is not just going to "happen", because there's virtually no industrial application for the
> required technology.  Ironically, putting the VLHC on an even footing with the ILC
> would actually have the opposite effect of what's needed in this regard.
> 
> I also *strongly* disagree with the statement that we shouldn't waive the flag and stress "US Leadership".
> Remember who the ultimate target audience is.  In terms of the required magnet technology,
> the US is *several years* ahead of the world, thanks largely to the investment
> made through LARP.  We are also the acknowledged leaders in several other key areas.  
> This should be mentioned as loudly and as often as possible, particularly when talking to 
> Congressmen, because this leadership will vanish in a heartbeat without diligence [Chris'
> email came in while I was typing, so .... what he said].
> 
> -Eric
> 
> 
> On Aug 23, 2013, at 9:08 AM, Ashutosh Kotwal wrote:
> 
>>> The harder question is whether it's well-motivated compared to other expensive (non-EF or non-HEP) science projects. Clearly many LHC discoveries would provide compelling motivation for a higher-energy machine, but such a discovery has not yet materialized.   We've tried to take a hard look in our NP report at the case in which _nothing new_ is seen at the LHC; you can judge for yourself how well we've done, but it's clearly a more slippery argument.
>> 
>> 
>> I think we all agree that we are not ready nor motivated to started digging the VLHC tomorrow. 
>> 
>> But I think at the next snow mass in 10 years, we would like the VLHC preparations to be as advanced as the ILC preparations are today. Note that significant ILC preparations were done before the Higgs discovery. 
>> 
>> Fortune favors the prepared mind. 
>> 
>> 
>>> (2) I've seen and heard some comments about "US leadership".  This is probably just semantics, but the implications trouble me, because:
>>> 	(i) "US" is ill defined: is it work done by US citizens? Or profs at US institutions? Or at US facilities? Or with US-built parts?
>>> 	(ii) "leadership" is somewhat pejorative to the rest of the community.   Isn't it enough that we work towards "continued US strength" rather than trying to make sure we have our elbows in front of our colleagues in other communities?
>>> 	(iii) Why is "US leadership" so important in such an international community with poorly-defined fuzzy borders?  Is such nationalism just used cynically to sell the project to Congress, or is there a real argument to be made that it's critical that we are #1?  
>> 
>> 
>> When the rest of the world starts calling us #7 I think we will not like the sound of that. 
>> 
>> regards,
>> Ashutosh
>> 
>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Daniel
>> 
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> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eric Prebys, Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
> Office: 630-840-8369, Email: [log in to unmask]
> WWW: http://home.fnal.gov/~prebys
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> To unsubscribe from the SNOWMASS-EF list, click the following link:
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Prebys, Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Office: 630-840-8369, Email: [log in to unmask]
WWW: http://home.fnal.gov/~prebys
-------------------------------------------------------------------

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