Ditto: I had an undergrad and a new grad student start off with
14-TeV studies with these Snowmass samples this past summer as a way to
ease them in. Very useful.
- Rick
On 8/20/13 7:17 AM, Reinhard Schwienhorst wrote:
> Hi,
> I also strongly support keeping the Snowmass samples in a downloadable
> location. From an analyzer perspective these have indeed been
> invaluable, without them many Snowmass studies would not have happened.
> This includes both the existing samples that need to be kept around and
> also the prescription and input files to generate new samples. Between
> the backgrounds and the prescriptions I am able to study any new physics
> model (or precision SM measurement) at several CM energies and the
> HL-LHC, something that wasn't possible until now.
> Going forward, they will not only be useful to theorists but also to
> experimentalists. Especially for new graduate students or for undergrads
> or for summer students, dealing with the Snowmass samples is much more
> straightforward than becoming ATLAS or CMS members first, then
> understanding the intricacies of the respective data and analysis models
> and then starting an analysis. With help of the Snowmass samples the
> path to physics is much shorter, and graduate students can switch to
> data analysis once they understand the physics through these Snowmass
> samples. I intend to use them with students and postdocs in future studies.
>
> Cheers,
> Reinhard
>
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 4:39 PM, Meenakshi Narain
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I would like to join in with my support for keeping this set of
>> simulated samples around.
>> These MC datasets have been valuable in many NP studies for snowmass.
>> I urge the DPF exec committee to invest in preserving these data and
>> I fully support the request made by Chip.
>>
>> The amount of resources - both personnel and computing, which have
>> been used to produce these
>> samples are non-negligible (and much more than the requested
>> investment of 10K to preserve the data).
>> These samples have a reasonable detector parameterization, include
>> large pileups scenarios,
>> along with higher com energies (33 TeV and 100 TeV) - for the first time.
>> Many of us have contributed our time (beyond our regular day jobs) to
>> this project because
>> we felt very strongly that these samples were needed by the EF
>> community now and also for the future.
>> The umbrella of snowmass brought many of us together, across the usual
>> boundaries of our experiments
>> and collaborate with our theory colleagues with the help of the OSG,
>> to address a critical resource needed for our studies.
>> The techniques we developed and samples we have produced definitely
>> have a lifetime beyond
>> snowmass, as witnessed by the fact that CMS requested us to use them
>> for ECFA studies.
>> And surely it will not stop there and will be used not only by our
>> theory colleagues, but also by experimentalists
>> investigating their ideas for future studies.
>>
>> The note is already public: arXiv:1308.1636
>> " Methods and Results for Standard Model Event Generation at
>> $\sqrt{s}$ = 14 TeV, 33 TeV and 100 TeV Proton Colliders (A Snowmass
>> Whitepaper)"
>>
>> Regards,
>> Meenakshi
>>
>> ======================
>> Prof. Meenakshi Narain
>>
>> Phone: 401-863-2634
>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> Department of Physics,
>> Box 1843
>> Brown University,
>> Providence, RI, 02912
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 1:39 PM, "Markus A. Luty"
>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>>> I cannot agree more with what Chip says. Let's find a way to keep
>>> this valuable resource accessible. In fact, the way should be kept
>>> open to *add* to it or improve it.
>>>
>>> I also suggest that the people who generated the data write a brief
>>> ArXiv note on it so that people who use it in their research can cite
>>> it. We should cite it in the Snowmass report as well. This is a very
>>> important contribution, and should be recognized.
>>>
>>> Markus Luty
>>>
>>> ============================================
>>> Physics Department
>>> University of California, Davis
>>> One Shields Avenue
>>> Davis, CA 95616
>>>
>>> Phone: +1 530 554 1280
>>> Skype: markus_luty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 10:44 PM, JoAnne L. Hewett
>>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I think this set of backgrounds is an extremely valuable resoure
>>> that our community could greatly use. Every LHC theory paper
>>> would be better off using it. Surely we can find a good home for
>>> it somewhere....
>>>
>>> -JoAnne
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2013, Raymond Brock wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Look. These data constitute a unique resource, created at
>>> considerable expense and time. There is nothing else like it
>>> anywhere: full-statistics in tails for small signal
>>> comparison, in a tool that's easy to use and mated to
>>> standard matrix element generators, and with pileup
>>> conditions that not even the LHC collaborations have
>>> simulated in all respects.
>>>
>>> It would be a tangible gift provided to the community by
>>> their DPF.
>>>
>>> Can I promise that it will be used immediately? No. But if
>>> the DPF EC can get over what I'm sure are a few loud voices
>>> and make the nominal funds available from its embarrassingly
>>> large bank roll, it can then advertise to its membership that
>>> these tools were built for the community and that they remain
>>> available for use.
>>>
>>> The theory community has nothing like this and neither,
>>> frankly, does the LHC community.
>>>
>>> I can't believe that we're actually considering getting rid
>>> of it or hiding it.
>>>
>>> I've cc'd the EF conveners to this thread (read it all from
>>> the bottom!) as apparently I need help or a straightjacket.
>>>
>>> best
>>> Chip
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2013, at 11:47 AM, LATBauerdick
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I?d say, people should make the case if they think this data
>>> should be an actively available dataset long-term, that
>>> people continue to run on and thus should be available on
>>> disk (and there?s much more at Fermilab and Brookhaven).
>>>
>>>
>>> Otherwise it can be archived and brought back when it is needed.
>>>
>>> I heard some people would like to continue in the next weeks
>>> to run for some additional studies for the ECFA meeting,
>>> which is fine, but also has a finite time scale.
>>>
>>> Beyond that, keeping data on disk just in case somebody later
>>> might want it is generally not a good way to go. And, yes,
>>> USCMS would like to eventually get that space back at Lincoln
>>> and at the LPC/Fermilab.
>>>
>>> Cheers, LatB
>>>
>>> --
>>> LATBauerdick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, August 18, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Raymond L Brock wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Steve,
>>>
>>> There's more. Here's a reply that I made to the EC after it
>>> was turned down after what Jon called "considerable resistance."
>>>
>>> The storage I spoke of is for a snowmass product. It's not a
>>> lot of money and we have to somehow relieve Ken Bloom of the
>>> violation of his MOU that he's done to host the root tuples
>>> that are of all of the backgrounds generated within the
>>> snowmass detector tool. The madgraph and pythia source still
>>> lives at FNAL and I've not heard of any threat to delete that
>>> stuff. He's also created an http download ability and I think
>>> he'd continue to support that. So it's a one-stop shopping
>>> center for backgrounds that include a fancy weighting scheme
>>> to populate tails of SM background distributions for rare
>>> signal comparisons. It's quick. It's simple and it's got a
>>> lot of use to it. For theorists, students, and yes, EF people
>>> who venture outside of their collaborations' straightjackets.
>>>
>>> I'm shocked that the EC would put up "considerable
>>> resistance" to this request. It has utility if we might ever
>>> - in the next few years - do any other community-wide
>>> simulation jamboree. I think at least some of the good
>>> feelings you got from Marcelle and Bjoern reflect that
>>> non-tribal benefits of working together. The Italians do
>>> something like this between CMS and ATLAS and I'd like to
>>> explore that in the US and those background samples are a
>>> great way for people to work on simulations for fun (or
>>> profit) and not worry about the onerous CMS and ATLAS rules.
>>> And as I said, they're available for theorists as well.
>>>
>>> Here's the tally:
>>> http://snowmass2013.org/tiki-__index.php?page=__NPBackgroundSamplesTwiki
>>> <http://snowmass2013.org/tiki-index.php?page=NPBackgroundSamplesTwiki>
>>>
>>> The context is that the DPF always has way more money in its
>>> account than I felt comfortable with as chair. It's _down_ to
>>> $100k now.
>>>
>>> So if the goal was just to archive the stuff, then sure. Tape
>>> would be a portable, permanent way to do that. But I have in
>>> mind that people might continue to use it. So the ability to
>>> get at the files easily would be a premium, as it has been
>>> for snowmass. I then offered to buy back the disks from DPF
>>> for our tier 2 if nobody used it for a couple of years.
>>>
>>> best
>>> Chip
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2013, at 2:29 AM, Steven Gottlieb
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>__<mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why not write them to tape? That would be much less expensive.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Sun, 2013-08-18 at 01:15 -0500, Jonathan L. Rosner wrote:
>>> See the third thing. Opinions welcome. Is this a Snowmass
>>> resource
>>> that DPF should pay to preserve?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jon
>>> -- Jonathan L. Rosner
>>> Enrico Fermi Inst., U. Chicago Phone: 773-702-7694
>>> <tel:773-702-7694>
>>> 5620 S. Ellis Avenue Fax: 773-702-8038
>>> <tel:773-702-8038>
>>> Chicago, IL 60637 USA [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><__mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>__>
>>> ==============================__==============================__====
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 14, 2013, at 11:40 AM, Chip Brock <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> hi Chair Line,
>>> Two things have come up which I think I should alert you to.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> 3. I know. I lied. This is a third thing. The snowmass background
>>> samples have been stored at the Nebraska T2. Ken supplied the
>>> resources
>>> - disk shelves - out of his T2 resources and he'll need them
>>> back. I
>>> think that this stuff should be preserved so people can
>>> continue to use
>>> them and so the easiest way to do that would be to buy disks
>>> for Ken to
>>> replace his loan. He's thinking about whether he can justify the
>>> support, but I suspect he can. The top end of storage would
>>> be about
>>> 100TB, so that's a $10k or so expense which I suggest DPF spend.
>>>
>>> That is all.
>>> Thanks
>>> Chip
>>>
>>> ------------------------------__------------------------------__---
>>> Raymond Brock * University Distinguished Professor
>>> Department of Physics and Astronomy
>>> Michigan State University
>>> Biomedical Physical Sciences
>>> 567 WIlson Road, Room 3210
>>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>>> sent from: [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>
>>>
>>> cell: (517)927-5447 <tel:%28517%29927-5447>
>>> MSU office: (517)353-1693/884-5579
>>> open fax: (517)355-6661 <tel:%28517%29355-6661>
>>> secure fax: (517)351-0688 <tel:%28517%29351-0688>
>>> Fermilab office: (630)840-2286 <tel:%28630%29840-2286>
>>> CERN Office: 32 2-B03 * 76-71756
>>>
>>> Twitter: @chipbrock
>>> Home: http://www.pa.msu.edu/~brock/
>>> ISP220: http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/__ISP220/
>>> <http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/ISP220/>
>>> ISP213H: http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/__2007spring/ISP213H/
>>> <http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/2007spring/ISP213H/>
>>> Facebook: http://msu.facebook.com/__profile.php?id=2312233
>>> <http://msu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=2312233>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------__------------------------------__---
>>> Raymond Brock * University Distinguished Professor
>>> Department of Physics and Astronomy
>>> Michigan State University
>>> Biomedical Physical Sciences
>>> 567 WIlson Road, Room 3210
>>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>>> sent from: [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>
>>>
>>> cell: (517)927-5447 <tel:%28517%29927-5447>
>>> MSU office: (517)353-1693/884-5579
>>> open fax: (517)355-6661 <tel:%28517%29355-6661>
>>> secure fax: (517)351-0688 <tel:%28517%29351-0688>
>>> Fermilab office: (630)840-2286 <tel:%28630%29840-2286>
>>> CERN Office: 32 2-B03 * 76-71756
>>>
>>> Twitter: @chipbrock
>>> Home: http://www.pa.msu.edu/~brock/
>>> ISP220: http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/__ISP220/
>>> <http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/ISP220/>
>>> ISP213H: http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/__2007spring/ISP213H/
>>> <http://www.pa.msu.edu/courses/2007spring/ISP213H/>
>>> Facebook: http://msu.facebook.com/__profile.php?id=2312233
>>> <http://msu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=2312233>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ##############################__##############################__############
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
> --
>
> Reinhard Schwienhorst Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Associate Professor Phone: (517) 884-5566
> Michigan State University
>
>
>
>
>
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--
Rick Van Kooten \ Telephone: (812) 855-2650 FNAL: (630) 840-3859
Dept. of Physics \ HEP FAX: (812) 855-0440
Indiana University \ e-mail: [log in to unmask]
Swain Hall West 117 \ http://hep.physics.indiana.edu/~rickv/aboutme.html
Bloomington, IN 47405
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